i wasn't really -- i was aware of the civil rights movement but didn't feel a part of it. when i became a young adult, when i went to college, that's when i became aware of what's going on in south africa and what was going on over there. but he always seems like this mythic kind of figure, almost like a symbol, not real. and i remember the day i was a young reporter working at the journal and he was released from prison and it seemed surreal. and it struck me. this has happened during my lifetime. all of these events in south africa took place in my lifetime. and gave me a more accurate picture of the world. >> is this the best example of where sanctions worked? >> well, sanctions made a difference, and they were morally the right thing to do, i believe. but even in south africa, sanctions didn't rescue south africa. south africa rescued south africa. and, you know, the ungovernability in the townships, i think, convinced the white government that the genie was out of the bottle and, actually, the collapse of communism. gotten a lot of support including from united states